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Post by daisy_strike on Aug 27, 2010 20:37:56 GMT -5
One of the most important facists of Otherworld is the economy. Everything costs money, keeping yourself afloat is important, hell one of the goals is wealthy.
Balancing the economy will become more and more important as we head towards a beta. Value of items, houses, slaves, jobs, will need to be balanced carefully to make the game make sense but not become frustrating.
A basic note in my mind...
1gp = the price of a basic meal as a standard.
And we are not doing coppers,silvers, tribbles, fractions or anything of the sort.
Post your Economy balancing here.
Daisy
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Post by swordwind on Aug 27, 2010 21:35:03 GMT -5
How wealthy is the nobility? Is there much of a middle class?
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Post by slackerfuu on Aug 27, 2010 22:41:44 GMT -5
since 1gp ~ one meal, middle class would make enough money to have 3 meals a day and have a little left over. that's how i interpreted daisy's statement. the poor people would probly only be able to afford one or two meals a day at most. whereas royalty would have at least three that aren't basic, so probly spend at least 6 gp on meals a day.
what's the basic status of slave traders? rich, poor, medium? i'll assume medium (they can afford 3 meals a day and have enough to buy something nice every few days). so: everything after this assumes 3 meals a day is standard. (i know this would be a lot of work but) in a menu somewhere, be able to set how many meals a day you feed everyone in the house, and how much you're willing to spend per meal. so say you, assistant and one slave are living there and eating three basic meals a day: you'd lose 9gp a day for food (sorta like an upkeep).
losing 9gp a day as standard: working: 10gp. (raise the price a bit as you gain ranks) items: would really depend on the item's usefulness. maybe at least 5gp. more for most items. piercings: 10gp. per piercing. tattoos: 50gp. since they all give effects. more for the better ones. branding: maybe a little more than it currently is. starting gp: 100gp. so far 90% of the time if you bid 50gp on a slave you get it. only times that doesn't happen seem to be when it's a prime. so 100gp should be enough for a slave with extra left over for food for a day or two. especially if you get rid of primes in the auction. or maybe have your assistant introduce you to someone who'll sell you a slave for 50gp. low quality of course. slaves (selling): i know quality was mentioned somewhere in-game. so price would be based on that and how proficient a slave is in her classes. say 1gp per percent. so if you sell a slave with 100% maid and 100% <sex skill> you get an extra 200gp on top of her base price. that seems a little high actually. note: don't count the skills percentage (like cleaning and cunnilingus) just the class percentage. slaves (buying): based on quality of the slave + 1gp per class percent she starts with. would be the base price
dunno how much sense any of that makes.
of course until beta don't change any prices so we can easily buy everything to test it. ;D unless, of course, we're testing the economy's balance. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------- current list (will update every once in a while):
some daily upkeep/bonuses associated with meals.
work (you): 10gp starting
slave jobs (prices vary as their skill increases): Whore: 1-3gp starting
piercings: how's 5gp a piercing sound?
jewelry: no less than 20gp each
other items: varies greatly. at least 5gp though
tattoos: 50gp (maybe 40) this high only cause they currently seem like brands but without the upkeep
brands: as is (give brands an icon that's not so similar to collars)
locking items: 25gp
buying slaves: based on the quality
selling slaves: something based on the skill percent (if i understood sword right: a basic class at 100% [say maid] will sell for 300gp + quality of slave) if that's right then: skill%*<classtype>+skill%*<classtype>+skill%*<classtype>+quality of slave+<classcomplete?> <classcomplete?> would check to see if the class was at 100% and if so, give a bonus.
housing: normal room: 200gp Master bedroom: 300gp Wings: 1000gp (varying effects depending on house)
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Post by swordwind on Aug 27, 2010 23:24:37 GMT -5
Daisy's statement didn't mention the relative size of the middle class. That's why I asked the question. That being said, a middle class defined in the way you deduce would be a pretty sorry middle class. In fact, that's probably a much more accurate definition of the lower classes. Only the destitute can't afford meals.
I'll agree that the Slave Trader, at least in most societies, would probably be in the middle class. If slaves are exceedingly common, as is the case with this game, it's probably a profession subject to a great degree of variance; the best probably brush shoulders with nobles, the worst may hang out in the slums.
Again, I contest this sort of definition of middle class.
Assuming three meals a day is probably pretty reasonable. This upkeep system seems a bit silly, though. If you want to charge upkeep, a more general upkeep that includes other living expenses (such as rent) would probably be more sensible. Of course, we could probably include some system like the one you outlined, with incremental choices, but we're heading into the mundane aspects of life that most video games avoid with good reason.
Working should really fluctuate extensively; some jobs should be more rewarding than others, some are dangerous, others are safe, some are degrading, others may increase the slave's self-esteem.
Piercing sounds about right.
Tattoos are wicked expensive, then. Remember, 50 gold is 50 meals. The equivalent would be $350+ U.S. dollars (50 meals from Mc Donalds, meaning potentially quite a bit more expensive) for a tat.
Branding seems pretty fair. A daily upkeep is quite a tax.
Starting gold should probably be a bit more forgiving then that. I'd double it.
Regarding the Nobility, though I was really asking Daisy's opinion, I will note that your estimate seems quite low again. While I was really more interested in relative wealth, you gave me absolute terms for the other classes, so I may deduce that you consider the royalty pretty pathetic, especially when you consider history. If the Royalty is only spending twice as much as the middle class, who are apparently having a shit time, than the general nobility will be spending around 4.5 gold /day, to use your figures.
TL;DR, Slack, is Magmell experiencing a heartbreaking depression?
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Post by slackerfuu on Aug 28, 2010 0:51:14 GMT -5
Tattoos are that expensive cause I'm pretty sure they all give special effects. Suppose it could be a little lower. Would've upped the brand price, but they have an upkeep so... Otherwise I agree with everything else. Especially the royalty. Thinking about it a little more, 6gp a day for meals is sorta low considering it's only twice as much as middle class pays. Probly more of a rich class price instead of royalty. If there's an upkeep there might not be other expenses to pay. At least not for the first house. The main point of it was to have how many meals you eat a day determine what your hp was capped at. Decided to delete that part of the post though and ended up with a semi-complete thought. Didn't do the math (too lazy right now. will if I have to), but the way I put the prices: raising a slave might not give much more money than if you worked all day instead of training her.
Realized I forgot about houses. Since we only know about the first one: Adding a room: 200gp. Maybe a little lower. Depends. Is the carpenter some magical dude who summons an extra room to attach to your house, or a group of people who work really fast to complete it in a day? I assumed the latter.
Stopped being lazy, did the math and results: assuming you raise a skill 1 point each time you do the action, most you can do is 4 points per day. 25 days to get one skill to 100. to get all 3 skills to 100 is 75 days. at which point you'd now have a girl with 100% in a class and she'd sell for 100gp +base price. you can work 3 times a day, so with say 10gp per job (though as swordwind said it should fluctuate depending on the job) you get 30gp a day. in 5 days you get 150gp. so unless the girl's base price is incredibly high, it's not worth it to buy a slave just to sell after a while. So unless that's how you want it daisy, the price for jobs and girls needs to change (jobs lower, girls higher)
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Post by swordwind on Aug 28, 2010 1:56:28 GMT -5
I can understand that. It's a case where logic and game balance are at a bit of an impasse. Of course, I doubt the effects the tattoos may give are high tier.
I figured as much. Reminds me of...Oregon Trail? Regardless, it's an idea I can support.
Seems reasonable (the price, not necessarily the super-competent carpenters). Of course, I'm not sure how exactly the room mechanic works. On the blog, Daisy has both 'Rooms' and 'Master Bedrooms.' Do they serve the same function, with Master Bedrooms giving a happiness boost to the inhabitant? Are Master Bedrooms for assistants, and Bedrooms for slaves? Or are Master Bedrooms for any servant, with rooms being module fabrications where you could decide to make, for instance, a forge for your would-be smith slave?
As I noted, and you agreed, the job's paychecks aren't exactly exceedingly high to begin with.
Even if the girl's base price is high, you won't actually be gaining a higher profit relative to a slave with a low base price. You would have to pay the higher base price to purchase the slave, so the benefit you would receive upon the sale is negated.
If you have a slave that has maxed even one class, you're selling a considerable investment.
In short, I assert that the slave value formula you propose needs to be re-worked. To make slave training viable, they have to have a higher re-sale potential.
Of course, this has the consequence of meaning that, socially, the majority of the Kingdom's slaves have relatively little training. Because the manpower necessary to deal with The Green is significant (probably with a noticeable casualty rate) this is plausible. If you don't believe this would account for the disparity, maybe Magmell could be at war with someone.
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Post by slackerfuu on Aug 28, 2010 2:50:14 GMT -5
Agreed. suggestions? Other than just raising the price of 'percentage'. (which is still an option, but there's probly a better way to decide the girl's price) The type of class would probly have something to do with it, so would how much/well they've been trained (which was what the percent thing was about), and the base price which is determined by the quality of the slave (still don't really know how that works yet. probly will at a later release when it's implemented)
I suppose it may not have been very clear, but the work I've been referring to is you working in the guild/supervising Green clearing. Not that it changes anything. Forgot the girl can work. The Whore job would probly give 1-3gp (based on the text for it that says they get barely enough to survive) with it being rare that they get 3gp. Don't think there's other jobs for the girl to do right now.
Got no clue how the rooms work either, just threw that out there. Probly need different prices for different rooms. Definitely buildings too. And what's wrong with super-competent carpenters/carpenter-mage? saves daisy the trouble of figuring out how to code them to take time. ;D
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 28, 2010 4:46:58 GMT -5
I believe it was mentioned that master bedrooms are for the trainer and assistants, and the normal bedrooms are for slaves. the problem I really see is that classes right now are selling for to much. I personally pick up an untrained slave for about 35g. I can within a week sell her for 200-300g. this is done by getting her maid and whore classes(not even training in them) so something like what slacker mention of applying a value to each classes training maybe necessary. some classes like maid are easy and common thus only get 1g per percent where are as a rare or hard class to train would be worth more, up to even 10 or 20g a percent. maybe a multiplier or just an adder effect for slave types like primes get 5x the class rate plus 500g and prime daughters get 3x plus 250g. figuring 500g is going rate on untrained primes so a prime with sex slave, whore, and maid (3 common classes 1g per %) at 100% is worth about 2000g. A prime that has something like diva, god hand, and courtesan at 100% (10g per %, 20g per %, and 15g per % respectively) would be worth about 23,000g. the starting gold should be low as you are just getting out of your own slavery and probably don't have much money after buying your house . so 100g should be fine. this will make your first slave the toughest to train and help dictate why you get a bunch of goods for just starting. as for the meals steal the Oregon trail idea. basic meal 1g, good meal 2g, extravagant meal 4g. then how many times a day you want to eat. it would work similar to the current brand effects. also this could lead to other effects like to many extravagant meals with out physical labor or exercise leads to obesity and thus lower sell value of the slave. as for the piercings, the price to pierce should go down the jewelry should stay the same or even go up. same with most of the items actually. most of the items now are severely undercosted for there effect in my opinion. since they can stack and most effect the same skills and stats its real easy to get like 30-40 obedience and up to 80 happiness on the first day.
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Post by Amoeba on Aug 28, 2010 7:45:53 GMT -5
Before we figure out starting gold, we should probably figure out how much it'll cost to turn a profit on your first slave, and then add some gold to that for cushioning. And I think instead of looking at meals as a sort of tiered thing, we should take the Monster Rancher approach. Different meals do different things(slightly affecting happiness/health/possibly other stats like sanity and lust), and then price them based on how their effects are balanced. If they're losing more happiness then they're gaining health, that's probably a cheap meal.
As for balancing slave prices, I think flagnine's idea for prices scaling based on class is the best way to go, but I think the scale could use some work. Maybe lower the value of percentages for advanced classes a bit, but add the value for a fully trained version of it's requirements to the base value of the class.
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Post by daisy_strike on Aug 28, 2010 10:00:54 GMT -5
As for classes I thought about this for a while
Noble including royal family is only a total of 7 families ( about 40 people) less then 1%
Next highest
Senators those who represent the masses. less then 1% of the population.
Master Crafts Man are the next most respected class. Being able to make anything well is of the utmost importance. They represent 1-2% and are also almost all Noave Rich, i dont know the spelling.
Expert Military being able to explore the pit and pull out raw materials, and made items of value while staying alive. less then 1% of population.
Traders, apprentices, foremans, freed slaves the middle class - There is always work available for someone who will do a job with out having to be constantly supervised. Magmell is in a huge economic boom, anyone can make a profit, if they want to. - about 30-40% of the population
Poor, thieves, the bastards - Those who refuse to make an honest days wages or are unable to. - about 5% of the population.
Slaves - People who were rescued in the pit, and were sold by the guards to pay for there rescuing. Those with skills that are valuable to the city are kept by the town council. Those with tradesman skills are sold to tradesman in a similar field to be brought up to speed, and then become freed slaves. The rest are sold on the block to make sure they are fed. 50-60%
That means slaves out number everyone else and while that should tip the other way in the next few years Magmell is in a precarious situation...
Daisy
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Post by swordwind on Aug 28, 2010 16:48:06 GMT -5
Slack
We could alter how the class benefits are added to the base price (Rather than additive, make it some sort of factor). But, I prefer the percentage formula, as it makes all work equal. I would just raise it, depending on the class.
I determined as much when your response to my response, which noted slaves, did not (your initial comment didn't indicate if they were being considered or not). The pricing for that job seems fair.
That would be the only advantage. Of course, I could probably steal useful coding for that.
Flag
Actually, no. That's why I asked the question. That being said, that explanation seems reasonable - which is why I offered it as a possibility when I was asking.
Th current formula is pretty bad. However, the proposed formula needs to be reworked, as it suffers from the opposite issue: the work to profit ratio is abysmal (instead of fantastic).
The proposed prime factor is ridiculous. I believe that has been stated that primes may enter more classes simultaneously; they can draw their extra profit from there.
While promoted classes should get higher values for their work, 10x, 15x, & 20x that are all far too high.
I believe that 200g is reasonable - it's a bit more forgiving, allowing for a bit more decision-making early on, without being unbalanced. I'm quite confident that your first slave will be the toughest to train regardless. Furthermore, you don't really get all that much for starting, and I'm confident that much of what is currently awarded to you for starting the game is simply a convenient way to beta test.
I like the meal idea.
That obesity system would be a huge pain in the ass to implement.
Piercing should go down, I agree.
Jewelry should go up, I agree. They should also have more effects, though.
Most of the other items seem reasonable, though. I haven't toyed with the items extensively, but you seem to be exaggerating. Furthermore, as it is still in testing, you're currently equipped with far more gold than you will be. With less starting gold, and a better balanced slave sale formula, the relative price of these thing will seem quite a bit higher.
I like this meal idea the best.
However, the starting gold should take the costs of maintaining your home and slave more than it takes into account potential profits.
The basic idea, that Slack outlined, is fine. The values are a bit insane. I do like the idea for a bonus for completing a class.
Daisy
That's a very interesting population make-up.
I do have a suggestion. The military needs to be larger, maybe as large as 5%. As is, the number of soldiers is equal to one segment of the upper classes - at every single point in history, and even logically, you'd find far more soldiers. Worse, with slaves as prevalent as you outlined, and guardsmen so rare, any slave riot would be successful enough to damage the entire society.
Why would it tip the other way? Doesn't he number of new slaves far exceed the number becoming freed...women?
General Suggestions (to everyone)
Slaves will increase in value by 1 gold/point in any basic class attribute they increase, 2 gold/point for intermediate classes, and 4 gold/point for the high tier. A bonus will be given for 100% completion in a class (the bonus will depend on the classes' level.) Primes will not get a bonus, and certainly not a multiplicative one, but can take more classes at the same time, meaning they can still potentially have much higher worth.
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 28, 2010 17:31:55 GMT -5
I can agree with this.
maybe an item pricing system needs to be put into effect. something along the lines of each stat the items raises 1 measure (1 measure =5 points) is worth say 25g. on the contrary an item that lowers a stat by 1 measure decreases the cost by 25g. thus an item that increases obedience, lust, and nymphomania by 5 each and reduces sanity by 5 would be worth 50g. this would regulate the cost of items as to make it easier to gauge and also reduce the stacking effect of items (at least without spending 500g on items).
the military population does need to be a bit higher 5% on the low end and maybe closer to 10%. depending on how threatened magmell actually is. anything above 10% means you are a militaristic country or at a time of full scale war. for reference America is at about 11% where according to wikipedia Israel is at about 85% and Japan is at about 2.5% (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_number_of_troops)
for the meals maybe giving the meals an effect such as. basic meal - no effect, good meal - +1 happiness, extravagant meal - +2 happiness. I don't think the food should have a positive effect on the health stat maybe not eating could have a negative one tho. also other meals could be added such as, drugged meal - +1 happiness and +1 lust.
so at 9g a day for 3 people you need 450g to survive a month. If this is the case you may need to have a job that can reliably give you 3g per shift. also girls might need to be payed by there skill level in a job such as whore. right now an untrained girl and a girl maxed as sexslave and whore earns the same amount for the whore job. the untrained and novice whore should only get 1g a shift where as a master whore and sexslave should earn 10g or more. this would help cover the daily expenses.
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Post by slackerfuu on Aug 28, 2010 17:46:32 GMT -5
sword: by basic class attribute you mean stuff like cleaning right? not just the class as a whole. that'd probly work out pretty well.
anyway, an updated list (sorta). hopefully i didn't leave anything out/forget it.
some daily upkeep/bonuses associated with meals. work (you): 10gp starting slave jobs: Whore: 1-3gp starting piercings: how's 5gp a piercing sound? jewelry: no less than 20gp each other items: varies greatly. at least 5gp though tattoos: 50gp (maybe 40) this high only cause they currently seem like brands but without the upkeep brands: as is (give brands an icon that's not so similar to collars) locking items: 25gp? (currently 50gp) buying slaves: based on the quality selling slaves: something based on the skill percent (if i understood sword right: a basic class at 100% [say maid] will sell for 300gp + quality of slave) if that's right then: skill%*<classtype>+skill%*<classtype>+skill%*<classtype>+quality of slave housing: normal room: 200gp Master bedroom: 300gp room upgrades: are there? if there's eventually furniture: 50gp at least
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Post by swordwind on Aug 28, 2010 18:07:25 GMT -5
This is an idea I can support.
Umm...Flag, the numbers they list are total per 1000 capita, not 100. So America would hover around 1.1%, not 11% (Japan's Self Defense force is only .25% of the population, and Israel would maintain around 8.5% of their population in the military.) Those are also listings of the total force, not the active duty soldiers, and all soldiers in societies such as Magmells tend to be active duty.
On the other hand, Soldiers would also serve as modern-day policemen, law enforcement agents (FBI, etc.) and several other duties that modern day soldiers no longer participate in. I think 5%, taken from the slave population, is about right.
Such a system is fine by me.
I think Slack's postulation of around 10g for a job you yourself engage in is more logical on cultural, logical, and game balance grounds. Remember, there are other taxes on your wealth, such as brands, and you'll probably want to be able to buy things at some point. Worse, I'm sure plenty of random events will have their cost.
I'm fully behind having a slave's skill in an activity influence their payment. Ten gold for a mastery seems reasonable. Remember, however, that the whore job doesn't require personal supervision: jobs that do probably deserve higher rewards.
I'll address Slack in the next post.
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 28, 2010 18:17:52 GMT -5
so how much do we think a new house is worth then? 1000g for a slight upgrade to the current house (current house can have 3 rooms and 2 master bedrooms). and something like 5000g for the mansion (up to 6 rooms and 4 master bedrooms)
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