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Post by Amoeba on Aug 7, 2010 5:46:46 GMT -5
However, the passing of traits that were secured by any other method breaks most biological laws. Not that this has anything to do with the game, but a lot of the new things going on in the field of epigenetics suggests otherwise. Granted, as we understand it now, it seems that it's not in a "You're a great swordsman so your kid is too" kind of way, and more in a "Growing up you didn't eat much so your kids have a slower metabolism and need less food" sort of way. But then a lot of smaller things could also be affected by passing on changes in gene expression, and if enough small things change, it could potentially mean people do have a tendency for naturally being better at the things their parents have practiced a lot.
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Classes
Aug 7, 2010 12:12:31 GMT -5
Post by swordwind on Aug 7, 2010 12:12:31 GMT -5
Genes don't change for almost any reason. If someone's genes do mutate, said change is, for the most part, invariably harmful to either the organism or its offspring. In addition, said change is never the direct result of study, practice, or anything of the sort.
Being tall means that your children are more likely to be tall. But, if someone stretched you on a rack for ten years, and then impregnated you, your children wouldn't be any more likely to be tall than if you had lived a normal life those ten years (or even if you were compressed for ten years.)
I have yet to see any study hat was conducted with sound methodology in support of what you said. Furthermore, any study that came to the conclusion you outlined would conflict with the most widely accepted, logical explanation of evolution (natural selection). And even if what you suggest is true, which I highly doubt, this would be the passing of acquired traits, skills (much less professions) are never addressed. And I believe the assertion that passing on a career genetically is possible would be utterly ridiculous.
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Classes
Aug 7, 2010 18:49:31 GMT -5
Post by flagnine1 on Aug 7, 2010 18:49:31 GMT -5
Ok how about doing something like this for the breeding mechanic:
to simplify the process the mechanic sees the slave maker as a random Archetype with prime. Male sex has a 50-50 chance of being considered futa or female for purposes of determining gender.
Father - Mother - Offspring percents
Archetype 1 - Archetype 2 - 40% chance to be Archetype1, 40% chance to be archetype 2, 20% chance to be random Archetype
Futa - non futa - 10% chance to have a futa baby (this is double normal chace to find one)
Futa - Futa - 20% chance to have a futa baby
Prime - non prime - 6% chance baby is a prime (double normal chances guessing on it based on observations)
Prime - Prime - 12% chance the baby is a prime
any - Pig Slut with low skill - use percents given above
any - Pig Slut with high skill - 90% chance to be fathers archetype, 5% mothers, 5% Random. 80% chance to be a futa like the father. 25% chance offspring is a prime if father is prime, 10% if just the pig slut is a prime, and 5% if neither are.
stallion with low skill - any - use percents for non pig slut couplings
Stallion with high skill - any - 90% chance to be mothers archetype, 5% fathers, 5% Random. 8% chance to be a futa like the father, increases to 80% if mother is a futa. 25% chance offspring is a prime if mother is prime, 10% if just the stallion is a prime, and 5% if neither are.
Stallion - Pig Slut - generate random slave using the regular couplings numbers.
something like that it makes it like breeding a golden chocobo and gambling at the same time. so maybe instead of giving the offspring the class then maybe give them an ability where they learn a class quicker based on the non- farm animal parents class.
one other big point is that if you start seriously breeding you will end up with a bunch of excess infant slaves. was figuring on solving this thru use of the orphanarium. for a fee (100g) they will take you infant slaves. I would say they then raise them to fill various niche's in society but mostly as guards and soldiers. also would say after a period of indentured servitude they are considered natives.
the other one is canceling pregnancies. since it is a sensitive issue (not to be debated here) that it should be in but have a button under options to turn the choice off if the player so wishes.
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Classes
Aug 7, 2010 22:01:16 GMT -5
Post by Amoeba on Aug 7, 2010 22:01:16 GMT -5
Genes don't change for almost any reason. If someone's genes do mutate, said change is, for the most part, invariably harmful to either the organism or its offspring. In addition, said change is never the direct result of study, practice, or anything of the sort. Yep, your genes don't change very often. Genes however, function via a cell, which does change, and can change the way those genes are expressed. I have yet to see any study hat was conducted with sound methodology in support of what you said. The Överkalix study is probably the most popular in regards to showing epigenetics affects on inheritance, but I've always thought the Angelman and Prader-Willi syndromes were better examples, as they're represented by the same exact DNA strand, but are expressed differently based on genomic imprinting. Furthermore, any study that came to the conclusion you outlined would conflict with the most widely accepted, logical explanation of evolution (natural selection). That's what I love about science. It adjusts it's views based on what's observed. And even if what you suggest is true, which I highly doubt, this would be the passing of acquired traits, skills (much less professions) are never addressed. And I believe the assertion that passing on a career genetically is possible would be utterly ridiculous. Well, the bit I quoted never said anything about careers, but yes, you're right here. Mainly I was arguing that a very, very limited form of Lamarckism might actually exist. However, and I'm not arguing this point so much as rambling on about thoughts on it, natural talent is usually based on physically being better suited for an activity. By doing something often, our bodies adapt to that task. Thus, if some barely noticeable bit of that adaption carries over, a child could end up having more "natural talent" for that practiced task.
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Classes
Aug 7, 2010 23:50:27 GMT -5
Post by swordwind on Aug 7, 2010 23:50:27 GMT -5
Flag
Can you please clarify? I have trouble following you.
If Daisy is fine with Prime breeding, than I'd suggest that we move it to 5% for one prime parent, 10% for two, (as these stats seem less arbitrary, and I don't mind making it harder by a statistically irrelevant number) and remove the pig slut/stallion bonuses in this aspect (they can keep their archtype & other bonuses). I strongly disagree that they should have up to a 25% chance of birthing (or fathering) a prime, and i don't believe that they should have a chance of having a prime child if neither of the parents are primes. Especially the pig slut, who will be birthing children more quickly than any other class.
I don't think that excessive slave would be too much of a problem. Pregnancy, even that of a pig slut, takes quite a while to bear results. If we were to be realistic, assuming there are as many hours in a day as there are in most modern cultures (that is the one unit of time that isn't addressed), you'd have to hit the next day button approximately 270 times. If you are getting overwhelmed by the number of children you are having, you are probably overwhelmed by the number of slaves you have to begin with. However, I don't see any real problems with this idea, other than the fact that it probably isn't necessary.
I don't think that even the quicker parent classes option makes too much sense. It's certainly more reasonable, and I wouldn't protest too strongly, but I think there is a better advantages you could give.
Amoeba
That study was quite an interesting read. You have my apologies, in that regard.
The disorders you mentioned, however, show little evidence of being a result of their ancestor's activity. They are, however, excellent examples of how important imprinting is (and how bad genetic mutations tend to be). It's entirely possible that imprinting is vulnerable to the same random flaws as all other biological processes.
I brought up the theory of natural selection because it is a popular, well known, and widely accepted theory - conflicts with it should be carefully examined. I do not believe that is the unassailable truth, and did not mean to suggest that. If I came across as doing so, I ask for your forgiveness.
I'd like to note that the study observed an increased rate in heart disease from the diet of ancestors during a specific time period of one of their ancestor's childhood. A physical trait was affected rather indirectly. So, it may be irresponsible to assert that training in swordsmanship would make your children better swordsmen (of course, you yourself noted that in the first place). Apparently, it may make them very, very slightly more suited to athleticism, though. Of course, it also means that they'd have ready access to a talented swordsmanship instructor.
In short, the generalization I made, as you noted in a manner that is absolutely correct, is wrong. However, I still believe that my comment, while incorrect, ironically reflects reality a bit more closely. For the most part, there is very little you can do to change anything about who your child fundamentally will be, other than choosing your partner. Your most recent comment takes note of that.
Furthermore, I apologize for my obstinence. I may have been overly skeptical. My comment regarding the professions were not placed there haphazardly; I thought that you were asserting a more general form of transference, similar to those reflected in the earlier comments.
Thanks again for your correction.
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 8, 2010 0:49:57 GMT -5
just stating that for the male slave maker the mechanic will randomly determine if he was a futa of a female for purposes of determining the gender of the offspring. i understand this is a funny way to do it but as there are no male slaves and doesn't seem like there will be anytime soon it seemed like a good way to fix it.
I thinking something like 50g to age a year for the incubation cost and that slaves are untrainable til age 16 (maybe older) that it comes to 800g from new born.
the orphanarium was noted as a pig slut can have up to 4 offspring in a pregnancy and if you are only looking for one set of traits the other 3 are gonna have to be disposed of with some how. and this seemed more humane than throwing them in the pit.
I'm looking at the stallion and pig slut breeding as more of a magical/fantasy cloning type mechanic more than a genetic breeding one.
the numbers are based on 3% chance to be a prime in auction house (based on observations, probably wrong tho). this means that any person born would have about the same chance to be a prime. the 6% is double that figuring primes are more likely to have prime children. and then again if both parents are primes. I don't find this over powering as even at 12% you are probably going to only breed 1 prime child about every 5 years (pregnancies). And that is with the mother continuously pregnant.
<modified questions out>
I believe those questions cover most of the arguments that need clarifying. Sword if you wish to add or change anything feel free.
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Post by swordwind on Aug 8, 2010 1:44:31 GMT -5
Thanks for clarifying.
Well, we've been working based of the assumption that having children is possible. You have been pushing for an inclusion of prime children, to which I contend that if we do, and I'm not sure we should, that chance should be very low. Certainly not one in four, especially if a single mother can maintain four pregnancies simultaneously in around three months. And, if we both are tolerant of a class that can do such a thing, we clearly have taken the fantastic route.
So, our issues aren't the ones you outlined. We are arguing over the extent to witch such things would be possible.
So, a pig slut breeding class is okay in my view. But one that can consistently pump out valuable units at marginal cost (normal slaves are useful enough, even if they aren't primes) shouldn't be made even more powerful.
As I noted, the change from 6%-5% and 12%-10% are largely aesthetic. Both are below the value necessary to be considered statistically relevant (3%). If you find this to be the serious issue, ignore it. The real problem is the boost to 25% for the Pig Slut & Stallion that you suggested (and the accompanying 5% baseline that they receive, even if neither they nor their partner are primes.)
Regarding the incubation...that just sounds silly. However, I do believe someone already suggested a potion of aging?
To be succinct, I don't take exception to what you're suggesting, I disagree with the how you want to go about doing it.
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 8, 2010 2:33:46 GMT -5
I was using the incubation as a way it increase the cost of breeding as to make it less viable. i.e. cost more to produce the slave then the untrained slave would be worth on the auction house.
I am also going under the assumption that the time and effort that goes into making a fully top end class should be rewarded, as all these classes should be extremely good at what they do if not broken (I am planning on making godhand and god slayer just as ridiculous if not more so once we get a combat system).
If by the time you get a fully trained pig slut you are hurting for money you are probably playing the game wrong. as right now you can buy a slave for 25ish g and sell her 3-4days later for close to 300 g (buy her get her maid and whore and sell her).
I can agree with you the numbers are arbitrary but it is the formula I used so they are a little off.
plus if you can produce one or maybe even 2 every 3 months. you should be able to find 10-15 on the auction house. so I really don't believe 25% chance for a prime is to high.
So how about something more like this then: If the pig slut/ stallion is not a prime and the other partner is, 15% chance of a prime. If the pig slut/ stallion is a prime and the other partner is not, 15% chance of a prime. If the pig slut/stallion and the other partner are both primes 25% chance offspring is a prime as well. that way you get reward for using a prime for such a task. also we can change the pig slut / stallion double non prime to be the same as baseline at 3%.
I see your point but I just don't believe it to be a huge problem and if it does seem to be one or it becomes one we can always fix it later.
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dcb42
New Member
Posts: 16
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Post by dcb42 on Aug 8, 2010 2:42:36 GMT -5
A note - as I understand the setting, a Prime is supposed to be a Big Deal - the primary manifestation of a girl of whom multiple reflections exist throughout dimensions. That is, there are many Orihime-type girls throughout the cosmos and the uncountable number of dimensions which converge in the Pit, but only one Orihime.
Seems to me that that should be a big enough deal, cosmologically speaking, that breeding for a Prime should be well-nigh impossible; Primes aren't something that are 'made,' they're something that 'happens.'
If a breeding system happens at all (which I don't know if that's definite yet anyways?), I could see the offspring of Primes qualifying for stat bonuses or special classes, but they shouldn't ever get Prime status themselves, IMHO.
(Besides, by definition, wouldn't any girl born in the game's setting be a native? Not a citizen, obviously, as the offspring of a slave, but still, Native is a class of girl in and of itself.)
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Post by flagnine1 on Aug 8, 2010 3:12:28 GMT -5
technically yes the children of slaves would be natives according to the definition of native. however unless there is a law saying the child of a slave is a slave, then there really wouldn't be a point to a breeding system and as sword pointed most of our argument is based on that there will be a breeding system.
as it stands right now primes are supposed to be the original that all copies of the girls are based on. they are also weavers of destiny around themselves. I disagree that there should only be one prime of each girl as in the long run unless there are more than about 20 or so slave archetypes getting a prime would be next to impossible as the religions, the government, wealthy collectors, and other trainers all seek to obtain primes as well. this would actually put the price of an untrained prime at more like 5000g instead of 500g, as there would currently be 4 primes in the game.
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Post by Amoeba on Aug 8, 2010 3:25:03 GMT -5
That study was quite an interesting read. You have my apologies, in that regard. No apologies needed. I don't really expect people to know about studies like that. From my experience, anything that questions Evolution as we know it tends not to be discussed, since there are those who would love to latch onto the fact that we don't fully understand the mechanisms yet. The disorders you mentioned, however, show little evidence of being a result of their ancestor's activity. They are, however, excellent examples of how important imprinting is (and how bad genetic mutations tend to be). It's entirely possible that imprinting is vulnerable to the same random flaws as all other biological processes. You know more about this than I gave you credit for. ;D Most of the people who I have had discussions like this with don't even know about gene imprinting and think DNA is the end all be all. It's rather disingenuous of me to use that as an example in this sort of discussion, but it's a great example of DNA not being said end all be all. My sincere apologies for acting under the assumption you were less informed than you are. I brought up the theory of natural selection because it is a popular, well known, and widely accepted theory - conflicts with it should be carefully examined. I do not believe that is the unassailable truth, and did not mean to suggest that. If I came across as doing so, I ask for your forgiveness. You apologize a lot. I took it the wrong way. I'd like to note that the study observed an increased rate in heart disease from the diet of ancestors during a specific time period of one of their ancestor's childhood. A physical trait was affected rather indirectly. So, it may be irresponsible to assert that training in swordsmanship would make your children better swordsmen (of course, you yourself noted that in the first place). Apparently, it may make them very, very slightly more suited to athleticism, though. Of course, it also means that they'd have ready access to a talented swordsmanship instructor. Another interesting thing I'd like to point out is that the study suggests this inheritance is sex specific. Fathers affect sons and mothers affect daughters. This implies that imprinting is probably the mechanism that causes this sort of inheritance. Really interesting stuff. In short, the generalization I made, as you noted in a manner that is absolutely correct, is wrong. However, I still believe that my comment, while incorrect, ironically reflects reality a bit more closely. For the most part, there is very little you can do to change anything about who your child fundamentally will be, other than choosing your partner. Your most recent comment takes note of that. Agreed. Well, aside from forcing the mother to do drugs or something. Or depending on what you mean by fundamentally, raising them. Bah, semantics. Furthermore, I apologize for my obstinence. I may have been overly skeptical. My comment regarding the professions were not placed there haphazardly; I thought that you were asserting a more general form of transference, similar to those reflected in the earlier comments. Lots of unneeded apologies. Thanks again for your correction. You're very very polite.
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Classes
Aug 8, 2010 10:55:23 GMT -5
Post by swordwind on Aug 8, 2010 10:55:23 GMT -5
Flag
The idea of balancing the cost/reward ratio with incubation is better than no balance, but I think that, as I suggested, simply lowering the reward means that we can make a cost largely unnecessary. Of course, an Aging Potion would have a price, but it sounds less alien than...incubation. And the price would probably be much less.
While High Tier classes should be powerful, I don't see the point in intentionally adding gamebreakers. While balance is not absolutely paramount, as it's not a multiplayer game, it should at least be a goal. Combat isn't enjoyable if the game lets you easily curbstomp everything.
In short, you are arguing for a Higher Cost/ Higher Reward scenario, and I think it should be Lower Cost/ Lower Reward. I think my stance is more balanced (there's no reason to deal with higher values if you can manage with lower) & reasonable.
dcb42 & Flag:
dcb42 didn't say anything wrong. As you can see, in every suggestion I post, I mention that I really don't think Primes should be something that you can manufacture (My % examples were my attempt at bartering). As my, (and, evidently dc's) understanding of the situation is that Primes are extremely rare. If you are seeing them at the market, they should be valued at 5k. I genuinely don't think that we should be seeing them at the market in the first place (I figured Daisy put them there so we could play with primes without having to create events for them, or something).
According to the definition of the word native, yes, children of slaves would be native to the city. However, natives in this system are supposed to be free from enslavement, and I doubt children of slaves are considered natives in that sense. It would be inappropriate to group native slaves and the general native population for this reason.
He did offer an excellent solution. Children of Primes could get a 'Prime's Daughter' trait 100% of the time (as all children of Primes would logically be a Primes child) that offers them some benefits.
And Daisy has yet to approve of any of this, it's the Suggestions thread, not the Irrevocable Games Mechanic thread. In a sense, we're arguing over what the best advice to give is.
Amoeba
I think I apologized just enough for how wrong I was.
Of course, Drugs, chemicals, and certain substances may also fundamentally affect your offspring. I was neglectful in failing to take note of those, but I think I conveyed my point.
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Classes
Aug 8, 2010 11:39:11 GMT -5
Post by flagnine1 on Aug 8, 2010 11:39:11 GMT -5
I have honesty given up on this at this point. considering we have been arguing for 2 pages on a mechanics issue and rule definition in the class suggestions. so I say we call it here and move it over to a mechanics/definition suggestions thread as we are going to need one so that we can get answers to continue submitting relevant ideas.
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Classes
Aug 9, 2010 13:12:55 GMT -5
Post by swordwind on Aug 9, 2010 13:12:55 GMT -5
New Class Idea
~Tentacle Creature~
Obtained from: Capture during battle in The Pits or Green (Using a net or similar item on a wounded tentacle [the closest current suggestion is...a pokeball, ffs, lmao] enemy.) *Requires the 'Animal Pit' house upgrade. If you don't have this addon, or if the pit is full, capturing a tentacle will get a "You decided the beast was too dangerous to keep" message.
Attributes Bestial Fury - Attribute line focusing on direct damage attacks. Represents the beast's ability to survive in combat
Reproduction - Attribute line focusing on the tentacles need for a reproductive host. Attacks of this line damage opponent's lust or capture humanoid opponents, so you may enslave them.
Tameness - Represents the beast's loyalty to their master. Low Tameness indicates that the tentacle is a feral beast, too dangerous to use and just as prone to attacking you and your allies as the enemy.
Ways to increase Stats: 1. Employing a beast trainer, who is capable of raising any stat.
Bestial Fury 1. Using in Combat 2. Purchasing 'Training Dummies,' which allow you train several times, then break.
Reproduction 1. Using in combat (minor boost) 2. Allowing the Tentacle to violate a slave, yourself, or some other prisoner or servant (which damages the slave's happiness & sanity, unless they have some sort of Tentacle Lover, Slave, or Addiction effect).
Tameness 1. Feeding the Tentacle. 2. Allowing the Tentacle to violate someone (minor gain).
Example Skills Violent Fury - Strikes the Enemy for 1.2x Normal Damage, lowers Tameness by 1. (Bestial Fury)
Violate - Attempts to vaginally violate a humanoid opponent. If successful, the targets Lust increases by 15. (Reproduction)
Ensnare - Attempts to capture a humanoid opponent. If successful, the target is trapped in the Tentacle's grip. When the rest of the target's party is defeated, the target will be added to your pen. For every turn the Tentacle is trapping an opponent, it loses x health.
Loyal Shield - Def Increases by y. For three turns, attacks directed at the player are redirected to the tentacle, and the tentacle gains z health per turn. The tentacle cannot take action during this time.
When all stats reach 100, promotes To: Tentacle Horror
Bestial Mauling - Prestige Bestial Fury attribute. Propagation - Prestige Reproduction attribute. Subjugation - Prestige Tameness attribute.
Example Skills Ravage - Strikes the enemy three times at -20% per hit (Bestial Mauling)
Continual Violation - If successful, this skill results you violating the humanoid target vaginally, anally, and orally, increasing their lust 10 points a turn for three turns. Neither the tentacle nor the target can act during this time, and the Tentacle suffers a 10% decrease to it's defense while using this skill. This ends if the tentacle suffers damage equal to 10% of its maximum health.
Loyal Bulwark - Raises Def by a. All attacks directed at the party are redirected to this creature for the next turn. I'd recommend that Tentacle Horrors be incapable of being captured (but can still be encountered, as enemies).
Thoughts?
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Classes
Aug 9, 2010 13:44:08 GMT -5
Post by flagnine1 on Aug 9, 2010 13:44:08 GMT -5
looks good
on ravage I think you mean -20% per hit
and on continual violation I would give it a chance to break on a hit instead of guaranteed. or make it a damage cap like while doing this the monster is at -10% def is the monster takes 10% of total life the victims escapes
I would also have violate and continual violation raise the lust of the victim
now just need to figure out where beast tamer fits into the slave class tree
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